LaGrou Interview
Lady Justice: Who are you? Please describe yourself in 30 words or less.
Lady Justice: Who are you? Please describe yourself in 30 words or less.
Miles: A transgender man, new to leather, lover, friend, intelligent, funny, and kind.
Ethan: i am a 50 y.o., disabled, African American, transman who is into Leather and BDSM. i am a founding member of La Fraternitie du Loup Garou.
Dale: Artist, Friend, Transsexual, Foodie, Club Webmaster.
Jake: I am Jake Arthur, a chubby, 40ish, pre/non op FTM, sadistic top Daddy who is comfortable in my own skin… for the most part. I am one of the founders of La Fraternitié du Loup-Garou.
Lady Justice: When did you first realize you were interested in leather/BDSM/fetish? And how?
Miles: After I started testosterone, all of these sexual thoughts I'd never had before filled my head, causing some bemusement. I hadn't realized my thoughts about sex would change so much. No one told me they would. I didn't have a chance to test-drive them until I met my boyfriend. He told me that when we started dating that he had been in the scene since his teenage years, and that, to have a serious relationship, he believed that I must have some interest in it. He asked me if that was possible, and I said it was.
Ethan: i think i was about 10 y.o. when i first recognized it. i found an old copy of Hustler and read a story about gang rape. i got incredibly turned on by the account of bondage and forced sex.
Ethan: i think i was about 10 y.o. when i first recognized it. i found an old copy of Hustler and read a story about gang rape. i got incredibly turned on by the account of bondage and forced sex.
Dale: When I was 20 years old a girlfriend I was living with would tie her husband up to their bed and humiliate him. We were often on the lookout for a good strap-on, but we broke-up before we could locate one to use.
An earlier instance of "what the hell was that and why am I turned on!" was
when I was a young teenager. When I was about 14, 15 years old, my sister had a French exchange student in for the summer. I was very attracted to her, but didn’t exactly understand that is was attraction. One day I was acting like the typical teenage boy around her, and she got me down on the ground, and sat on me pinning me to the floor. Then she started to slap my face. She did it a number of times. When she was done I was a little sad it was over. She told me that she did that to her brothers when they acted nasty. I have to wonder if any of them have a submissive side.
An earlier instance of "what the hell was that and why am I turned on!" was
when I was a young teenager. When I was about 14, 15 years old, my sister had a French exchange student in for the summer. I was very attracted to her, but didn’t exactly understand that is was attraction. One day I was acting like the typical teenage boy around her, and she got me down on the ground, and sat on me pinning me to the floor. Then she started to slap my face. She did it a number of times. When she was done I was a little sad it was over. She told me that she did that to her brothers when they acted nasty. I have to wonder if any of them have a submissive side.
Jake: I realized I was into BDSM as a teenager; well, I knew I liked to inflict pain and play with people's fears. I was given my first whip when I was 14. I've always been drawn to the rebel/biker/outlaw image. The more I found out about leather, the more I was drawn to it, starting in my 20's.
In my mid 20's I was approached by the then pledge master of Trident International/Toledo, who suggested I might want to check them out. I was not in a place in my life where that was feasible, but it piqued my interest.
Eventually, I started the application process with Trident, but I left Toledo before I became a pledge. By the time I returned to Toledo, La Garou was already taking shape.
Lady Justice: What are your hobbies?
Miles: I read quite a bit, write, like all sorts of word games, and love to learn new things. On the physical side, I used to lift weights seriously and ran until medical problems ran that into the ground. I hope I heal enough to start that up again. I also know how to SCUBA dive.
Ethan: Reading, music, beading, watching TV, playing on the internet, writing erotic short stories and poetry.
Dale: Leather crafting and cooking.
Jake: I'm a bit of a survivalist, really into the whole self-reliance thing, at least as a concept. I also enjoy camping, cooking and historical reenactment.
Lady Justice: What is your favorite quote?
Miles: I think it is “The eye altering alters all.” (If not, it's close enough). William Blake.
Ethan: "If it doesn't hurt, you're not doing it right!"
Dale: "The search for love continues even in the face of great odds."
I found it in a book by Bell Hooks, but she was quoting an anonymous graffiti artist.
I found it in a book by Bell Hooks, but she was quoting an anonymous graffiti artist.
Jake: If you asked some of the girls and boyz I've played with, they'd say "Good and good at it are not the same thing." For me it’s a toss up between "Daddies are just bigger brattier boys" and "Don't dream it, be it." (Yes, I'm a RHPS fan.)
Lady Justice: How long have you been involved in the leather community?
Miles: Only about two years and change.
Ethan: About 25 years.
Dale: 11 years.
Jake: Publicly, I've been most active in the community for about the last 10 years.
Lady Justice: Do you feel there is anything vital missing from today’s leather community?
Miles: Unity.
Ethan: i think the main thing i find lacking in the community is a sense of cohesiveness.
Dale: Forgiveness and healing.
Jake: Community seems to be lacking; traditional leather clubs are struggling to survive and the new leather/BDSM organizations don't quite seem to know how to fill the bill.
Lady Justice: What is your definition of a “leatherman”? What are his responsibilities?
Miles: Someone who is honest, who one can trust, with a good sense of responsibility. He is at his best among his brothers, and will stand with them against all potential harm. He understands love and compassion. His responsibilities to his community are to teach those with an interest, evaluate their qualities with an eye to their fitness to carry on the message, and to be a good friend.
Ethan: A Leatherman is a role model, a nurturer, and sexy as hell. He sees leather as more than just something to wear or 'play' with.
Dale: My leatherman definition: someone who self identifies with the leather community, or just a person who has leather fetish. Responsibilities? There is only one thing leathermen should be doing. They should always inform their sexual partners about their STD status.
Lady Justice: Which roles in the Leather BDSM lifestyle do you fit? How do the following words compare to you: Master, slave, dominant, submissive, sadist, masochist, Daddy, etc…
Miles: Submissive, switch, not sure what else yet.
Ethan: Bottom, boy, cub, puppy, pain pig, submissive.
Dale: I am a switch who enjoys being a sadistic top, and when I can find someone for some good sub space with humiliation I am quite happy.
Jake: First and foremost, I am a daddy. I'm a laid back dominant, which sometimes causes people to make the mistake that I'm not "serious" about it. I'm not a master by my own definition, though I can enjoy being a master in some situations. I am a sadist, both physically and mentally. I enjoy causing pain for people who enjoy receiving it. When it comes to playing with people's minds, I have loads of fun; it's the Daddy in me that like to tease the grrls and boyz.
Lady Justice: What keeps you passionate about the leather community?
Miles: Excitement, the sense of the new (right now, although the newness will eventually be replaced with other things), the incomparable sense of camaraderie, and the great friends I have already made.
Ethan: i think my passion regarding the leather community has to do with learning and, hopefully helping to educate newcomers.
Dale: Knowing that there are other people out there that are just as curious as I was 11-12 years ago. They're out there looking for answers and a good time!
Lady Justice: Could you tell me how LaGarou started?
Miles: The initial founders, Ethan Young, and Jake Arthur, met in 2002 at the True Spirit Conference, a transgender conference for FTM transpeople. They talked of forming the first leather club for male-identified transgender people born female. They subsequently met Dale Bogucki, and all three hashed out a set of bylaws. Dale came up with the design for the club colors, and the search for new members began. A couple of people tried but weren't ultimately interested, and I became the fourth member in 2006.
Ethan: As i recall, La Garou came out of a conversation that Jake Arthur and i had at a True Spirit conference about our frustration over the lack of resources and camaraderie available to OUT transgender leathermen.
Ethan: As i recall, La Garou came out of a conversation that Jake Arthur and i had at a True Spirit conference about our frustration over the lack of resources and camaraderie available to OUT transgender leathermen.
Jake: Ethan and I got to talking about how to help bridge the gap between traditional clubs and new style organizations, plus help transguys find a place in the leather community. We tried hard to make a group that could do both, but we just couldn't make it work. We both had been involved with lcs in our local areas--me with Trident/Toledo, him with the Syracuse Journeymen--and decided that kind of camaraderie was more important to us than anything. We sat on it for a while, not really knowing where/how to go with it. I met Dale at the last True Spirit conference, and it took off from there.
Lady Justice: Where would you like to see La Garou in the future?
Lady Justice: Where would you like to see La Garou in the future?
Miles: I'd like to see us have more members, to expand our event, CampOUT, to a much bigger thing than it currently, and to make other female-born male-identified people aware that there is an alternative to operating in stealth-mode in traditional male-only leather clubs, if that is what they might want. I'd also like the club to expand nationally, perhaps having several chapters.
Dale: In the near future I want to see the club grow. I am doing my best to find qualified people to pledge and am always hoping people will ask about the club.
In the distant future I would like to see that there will be no reason for its existence, or that the club will vote to allow all people to become full members. Right now Full Membership is reserved for people born female but who identify on the male side of the gender spectrum. We are here because of the issues facing our particular part of the leather community. We are here to give this group of people a haven to find acceptance, and a place in this community. I would hope that as things progress our club can be there to be a bridge for understanding, and acceptance.
Jake: I would like to see La Garou made obsolete. Our purpose in starting the club was to give voice and visibility to transmen, so they don't have to fear someone will "find out" and ostracize them for who they are. I would like to see such widespread acceptance of transmen in the leather community that there is no need for a club especially for us.
Lady Justice: What organizations do you belong? Are you an officer of any of these groups?
Miles: La Garou. I am currently treasurer and secretary. I co-organize CampOUT, and handle donations for prizes and the auction. I am also a member of LIFE Detroit.
Ethan: National Center for Transgender Equality; Dignity USA; Trident International - Toledo; Gay Male S/M Activists.
Lady Justice: What is your fondest memory while you were wearing leather over the years?
Miles: I would say my first IML, and the first time Dale and I had a scene together.
Ethan: Getting a horizontal clitoral hood (HCH) piercing at LIFE Detroit's DARK 5 weekend in February 2009 in front of a small audience of leathermen!
Dale: So far… sucking cock.
Lady Justice: Have you ever conducted a leather workshop? What was the topic? If you were to teach more leather workshops, what topics would you teach?
Miles: I have not taught any workshops yet. I really don't know what I'd like to teach yet, maybe medical torture techniques, since I was a medical technician and nurse in the Navy. I still remember all the things I learned there.
Dale: I have taught pumping for FTMs. I like to do ones on fisting, and DIY toy workshops.
Lady Justice: What are the largest issues for transmen in the leather community?
Miles: 1.The fear of coming out as trans, and of stealth transmen being outed or menaced by others in their brotherhood if found out. 2. Acceptance by cisgender gay men of trans gay men. 3. Our differences from other people in the LGBT community, and whether others will understand them. 4. Seuxually transmitted disease and abuse issues. 5. Women's health issues, which often go unaddressed.
Ethan: The largest issue for transmen in the leather community is our lack of visibility. Transmen have been a part of the leather community for as long as either has existed, but for the most part, they have not been out about their status unless they are engaged in sexual activity. Because of this, a lot of natal-males see transmen as less than 'real' men. In a lot of places, when there are play parties for women, transmen are made welcome but transwomen are not, and this perpetuates the myth that transmen are not really men.
Dale: If you choose to be out it is hard to find acceptance across the board. There are always people in individual areas that have open minds, and are very welcoming of all people no matter what their gender or genitals are. Although, with every open minded person there is inevitably a closed minded person who will refuse to accept anything that falls outside of their ideal leather person. And even amongst the people who are accepting on the outside, there are instances that show that subconsciously there are still issues they are dealing with.
If you choose to go stealth you do nothing to continue to subvert acceptance of all transpeople. Sure you can be just like all the other people who are our allies, but what are you really saying about being trans if you can't admit it yourself? People who are stealth are forever worried about being outed. Even some people who have had all their surgeries, and document changes worry about this. Being stealth also perpetuates the myth that there are no transmen in the leather community, and that in a gay male setting we ruin the energy. It would be a real eye opener for cisgender men everywhere if they found out how many transmen were already in the community.
If you choose to go stealth you do nothing to continue to subvert acceptance of all transpeople. Sure you can be just like all the other people who are our allies, but what are you really saying about being trans if you can't admit it yourself? People who are stealth are forever worried about being outed. Even some people who have had all their surgeries, and document changes worry about this. Being stealth also perpetuates the myth that there are no transmen in the leather community, and that in a gay male setting we ruin the energy. It would be a real eye opener for cisgender men everywhere if they found out how many transmen were already in the community.
Lady Justice: What is your stance on “Old Guard” versus “New Guard” leather protocols and rules?
Miles: I don't think there is anything wrong with either, and I'd like to see both understand and respect each other.
Ethan: i am on the fence. When i was getting involved in the leather community, i learned a lot from "old guard" leathermen, and i still live by that today. But, i also think there is room for "new guard," as long as we don't forget those that came before us.
Dale: I feel that there is much that is not so different about the heart of "Old" vs. "New." If you had asked me this a few years ago I'd have felt differently, but as I have grown to have a better understanding, and talked, and read, and learned I see that not much has really changed with the core values. Sure there are people who will rail that things are hugely different. I ask is the core idea that different? But, I think that the times have moved on, and in general the feel of things are different. HIV was a driving force to that difference. I think the leather community will continue to grow and evolve, and it will be better for it in the long run. We're still in a major flux, and period of change to the look of the community, but not a change in it's heart.
Lady Justice: Do others outside the leather community know you’re into leather? If so has that created any difficulty?
Miles: Yes. I am fully out and like it that way. It hasn't created difficulty because I don't care what vanilla people think. I have disability income and do not work but, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't make a difference if I did work, but I might not want to let employers know this about me. I understand the fear that it would lead to misunderstandings or termination. My friends and family know, and it doesn't bother them.
Ethan: People outside the community know that i am into leather, but if they have problems with it they have not talked to me about them.
Ethan: People outside the community know that i am into leather, but if they have problems with it they have not talked to me about them.
Dale: Yes. Sometimes there are difficulties, but I try to not let it be an issue. I know when and where to discuss it so that keeps the issues to minimum.
Lady Justice: What qualities about yourself do you like the most? The least?
Miles: I like most my desire to learn, to have fun, my intelligence and extroverted attitude. I like least my insecurity about new situations and people, and my inarticulateness around those people. I sometimes have
communication difficulties with people, and sometimes worry if they will judge me. I'd like to be more confident.
communication difficulties with people, and sometimes worry if they will judge me. I'd like to be more confident.
Ethan: Most: perseverance; intelligence; honesty; loyalty; compassion; willingness to try new things. Least: internalized racism; lack of confidence; too trusting.
Dale: Like most, I am truthful enough to have been called "blunt", and "abrasive". I'd say that's alright with me. The least, procrastination.
Lady Justice: If you could change anything about yourself, what would it be? And if you could change anything about others, what would it be?
Miles: Anything I can change right now, I am already working on. And I realize that I can't change anything about others, only myself.
Ethan: i would increase my confidence and i would have a penis! As far as other, i would make the world more accepting of differences.
Dale: I'd change my inability to remember names on the first introduction.
In others, I'd change their need to be dishonest.
Lady Justice: Could you tell me more about CampOUT and how it began?
In others, I'd change their need to be dishonest.
Lady Justice: Could you tell me more about CampOUT and how it began?
Miles: I don't have a complete history. I do know that it is five years old, and has been steadily growing in attendance since its first year. This will be my third year, and my second as a full member of La Garou. We have changed venue from Lothlorien, a cooperative living collective in Indiana, to Longfork Campground, a clothing-optional gay campground in West Virginia. We have demonstrators/teachers who give a number of workshops, a dungeon, contests, and different kinds of entertainment
like a pool party and an interactive auction experience we call "screw your neighbor".
like a pool party and an interactive auction experience we call "screw your neighbor".
Ethan: Jake, Dale, and i wanted to create an event that was more social than most of the FTM conferences, and focused more on leather. Since we all enjoy camping, we decided that a camping event would be great. For three years, we held the event at a private nature sanctuary in Indiana, but problems around transphobia, leather-phobia, and power struggle caused us to move the event to Long Fork Campground in Walton, WV. We have grown in attendance each year and have been able to have presenters such as Raven Kaldera and Lee Harrington. It is a great time and everyone is welcome, regardless of sex, sexual orientation, gender, or gender identity/expression.
Dale: For me, CampOUT has always been about recruiting more members for the club, and bringing more people into the leather community by showing them all sides of it including it's spiritual side. Without putting effort into it specifically our event has always managed to be a community builder, and a great time to relax and have fun.
Lady Justice: What is the last book you read that deals with leather and the last book you read that is a non-leather topic? Why did you choose those books?
Miles: “The Leatherman's Handbook”, Larry Townsend--recommended by my clubmates. I wanted to learn about basic leather stuff. And, “The Omnivore's Dilemma” by Michael Pollan. I like to read about the workings of society from all angles, and this book is about how people decide what to eat in a society almost totally dominated by monoculture and industrial food preparation.
Ethan: “Leathermen: Gay Erotic Stories”, edited by Simon Shepard; and “No Pity: People With Disabilities Forging a New Civil Rights Movement” by Simon P. Shapiro.
Dale: I have been reading the periodical "Instigator" more than anything. I love the articles, and of course the fact that it is raunchy and filthy! The last book I was reading was "Anger" by Thich Nhat Hanh.
Lady Justice: When you flag, which colors do you wear? Do you wear them on the left or the right?
Lady Justice: When you flag, which colors do you wear? Do you wear them on the left or the right?
Miles: Light blue, maroon, black, red--right. Black, left (super-recently, and only once so far). I enjoyed it!
Ethan: i usually flag black, yellow, and hunter green, and very occasionally light blue, always on the right.
Dale: On the left, Tan for cigar top, Black, Red, and olive drab
On the right, red, olive drab, grey, and I'd like to put yellow in there, but have just been too chicken!
Lady Justice: What would you like to accomplish in the next year?
On the right, red, olive drab, grey, and I'd like to put yellow in there, but have just been too chicken!
Lady Justice: What would you like to accomplish in the next year?
Miles: Learn more top and domination techniques. Learn how to accomplish the submission of my boyfriend. Possibly do a ball-dance or pull to work up to a suspension.
Ethan: i would like to go back to school to finish my bachelor's degree in social work, and i would like to represent LaGarou at more leather/BDSM events around the country.
Dale: Selling my art, erotic or not. Just making money that way.
Lady Justice: Do you remember your first time in a leather bar and what was memorable about it?
Lady Justice: Do you remember your first time in a leather bar and what was memorable about it?
Miles: My first time out with Dale and Jake… just looking at all the guys, and asking a bunch of questions and being excited.
Ethan: i think the most memorable thing about my first time in a leather bar was the smell of the leather and the crush of beautiful men.
Dale: It was at the Cell Block in Chicago. Back before it was sold, and then sold again, and basically lost it's luster for awhile. The back bar was still really hot, and they had a heavily enforced dress code. I had this second hand leather vest that was not at all fashionable, that got me in. I totally loved it back there. Even though my first time was as a leather dyke I knew
my brain was somewhere else. The first time at the Cell Block transformed fear into joy.
Lady Justice: Let’s pretend that you’re placing a 35 word personal ad in the column. How would it read?
my brain was somewhere else. The first time at the Cell Block transformed fear into joy.
Lady Justice: Let’s pretend that you’re placing a 35 word personal ad in the column. How would it read?
Miles: I'm not a personal-ad kind of guy. I think it can be dangerous, just like meeting someone over the Internet.
Dale: WFTM, seeks third or fourth for a fuck buddy. Must enjoy topping and nasty pig sex.
Lady Justice: What do you think our community needs to successfully move into the future?
Lady Justice: What do you think our community needs to successfully move into the future?
Miles: We need more unity and more teaching. More tolerance and less judgment of different kinds of fetish from the kind we practice.
Lady Justice: Would you like to tell us more about any of your new endeavors?
Lady Justice: Would you like to tell us more about any of your new endeavors?
Miles: I was happy to be a top for the first time recently. I got great feedback and am not so fearful of it now.
Lady Justice: Is there anything else you’d like to share with us?
Miles: I look forward with relish to the future. I can't wait for this summer and all the fun we will have.
Lady Justice: Is there anything else you’d like to share with us?
Miles: I look forward with relish to the future. I can't wait for this summer and all the fun we will have.
Contact information if you’d like to learn more information about La Garou or CampOUT: lagarou@hotmail.com
Miles: email - smilesoplenty@gmail.com.
Ethan: email - ethan.eyoung9@gmail.com or ethan.young@ymail.com
LiveJournal sn - transman58
MySpace sn - pigboyethan
FetLife sn - trannydog
Ethan: email - ethan.eyoung9@gmail.com or ethan.young@ymail.com
LiveJournal sn - transman58
MySpace sn - pigboyethan
FetLife sn - trannydog
Dale: http://corporaldale.com
bravenet.com